Well I apologize for no post on Saturday. I was away camping with my youngest son and returned late last night.
Chapter 5 begins with the conclusion (based on all we have discussed in ch 1-4) that we are justified (saved/ pronounced once and for all-- forgiven) by faith...and, as a result, have a couple of key characteristics about our lives that are true.
First, we have Peace with God through Jesus (v.1). This Peace speaks of the satisfaction of enmity between man and God. In other words, the sin debt is completely and irrevocably settled. Now this is pretty interesting to me. I just completed a 1 week "on-line" survey/poll on this site. In the survey, I asked about a person's salvation and how "secure" it was. Nearly one third stated that salvation (justification) somehow depended on their efforts. Listen friends, I know enough of myself to know that it my Peace with God relies somehow on me...I am sunk...because I will miss the mark along the way and lose it all. When the Scripture says we have Peace with God, the Peace comes through Christ and is settled and secured in Him and His efforts alone.
Second, In our justification, we are "introduced" into the grace in which we presently stand. In other words, salvation [big picture] certainly doesn't stop with justification. We are only beginning the process of walking/living by grace and in grace (v.2).
Third, we gain a hope that orginates in God (v.2b). This hope extends beyond our justification (which is already a fact), and beyond our walking in grace (sanctification) which is a present reality. Ity is a hope in the glory of God...or what we call glorification. Our hope is not in this day or the circumstances of the day; rather, our hope is in the Day to come when Our Lord comes and establishes His Kingdom...and being glorified as He triumphs over all that this world stands for.
In vv. 3-6, we see that all that we experience in life builds us and strengthens us. Notice that tribulations produce perseverence...and perseverence-- proven character, and character...hope. The implication is that there is no hope without character, and no character without perseverence, and no perseverence without tribulations (the pressures of life). Wow! That will mess up the TV preachers who have convinced so many that the source of their struggle is the lack of their faith. HOGWASH! The Struggles in life are the essential building blocks that ultimately reveal character and hope.
vv.6-11 are cool to me. Things did not get out of hand--leading to Christ's death. At the right time (v.6) Christ died for the ungodly. (Interesting sidenote for my friends that say Christ only died for the "elect." There is no limit on the "ungodly" that Christ died for...so the argument for dying only for the elect...is contradicted here). These verses point to the heart of God. He is not like us. Man may consider dying to save a good man, but God showed/demonstrated His heart for us in Christ's death for us while we were sinners in rebellion.
vv.12-15 state that while the sin nature is imputed to us by the Fall of Adam, Salvation/ forgiveness is imputed to man through Christ's actions. The grace that came through Christ is greater than the sin nature that came through Adam. It abounds more and more.
vv.16-21 show just how sufficient grace is...how it is greater than sin and the sin debt. The more condemnation, the greater the grace.
Some "feel" as though their sins are so severe that God would not want them. An example is an exchange I had this weekend with a man who mentioned to me a particular sin (pride...I think) and said it was one of the "deadly sins." I told him that I read the Book and that all sins were deadly. Friend, any sin (from lying to your parents, to stealing a paperclip or cheating on your timecard) is deadly and separates you from God. The Law serves to show us how INCAPABLE we are of ever achieving justification in our own strength. Therefore, the more we know of the Law...the more we know of our unfitness in the Kingdom...and the sweeter Grace is revealed to be.
Proverbs 12:1 is the takeaway today. "Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid." I chuckle at the proverb because it reminds me of NY. Pretty straight-forward. At the same time, I am mindful of those who choose to not learn more about God, reject the admonition to be under the teaching of Scripture...or look for a church environment/community that is less condemning and more accepting (sometimes used as code words for not preaching against actions/activities that are sin...but that I enjoy). It is as though the person thinks that by not knowing...they will be fine. Friend...that is just stupid. (No, I am not being harsh...just quoting the writer of this proverb.)
Grace,
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5 comments:
Glad to see you made it back from camping...:) I have to say the part that really sticks out to me is how God died for the ungodly. That is reality for ya, how thankful I am of this promise. Then the verse continue to talk about us, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. We are so unworthy of Jesus dying for us. I can't think of many people on earth who would want to die for me. But Christ came for the purpose of dying for me. That is amazing love!
Proverbs vv. 14-19 God has shown me many times over the months of September and now October that the mouth is powerful. I am working on using my mouth to edify God!!
I don't think I can agree with your logic on the comment concerning v. 6. You can't argue that the general statement contradicts or negates the more specific statement. The elect are physically born ungodly as are all men. These two statements are simultaneously true. Otherwise, it could lead you to a "Universalist" view in which all will go to heaven since Christ died for all. However, other more specific statements, clarify and amplify this general statement but are not contradicted by it. We know that Christ died for all but not all will go to heaven. In this same manner, Christ died for the ungodly (some who will go to heaven and some who will not) and the elect (all who will go to heaven).
David,
Glad to hear from you. The forum here won't allow for an indepth treatment of the issue...but I don't see that your statement and mine are all that inconsistent. First, we both agree that Christ died for the ungodly, of which all people qualify. I am not sure which general/specifics you are refering to that I say contradict. Maybe I am just slow this morning. If the premise is that there is a verse that teaches that Christ died only for the elect...lay it out there. Most guys who live in this "camp" of theology make the argument from "logic" and not the Bible directly. In which case, I can say that Christ died for both the "elect" and the "non-elect." (But it sounds like you agree with that.)
Whether something could "lead to a universalist view" or not...I can't really say. My experience is that you can take any verse and make it lead anywhere you want it to go if you apply "your own" interpretive principles to it. Do I believe that Christ provided Salvation for all...ABSOLUTELY (cf. 1 Jn 2:2, Jn 3:16, etc). Do I believe all are saved.... ABSOLUTELY NOT. Do I believe that God determines who is and who isn't without any responsibility on the person (i.e. irresistable grace) not in a million years. God is Sovereign in Salvation. Man is also ABSOLUTELY responsible to respond to God. God calls to some who do not answer...and they, regretfully, are eternally "lost"; Not because God wanted them to be lost eternally...but because they did not respond to God's call.
I don't think we are too far apart here. If we are...we can agree to disagree agreeably.
Thanks for the post.
To say that verse 6 "Christ died for the ungodly" is a valid contradiction of the possibility that Christ died only for the elect would have to imply a universal quantifier that is not necessarily there. In John 10:14-15, Jesus talks about his sheep and that he lays down his life for his sheep. So here is a more specific statement than the more general one made in Romans 5:6 and elsewhere. Although from this starting point one could not make an argument that he died ONLY for his sheep.
Since the concept that Christ died for only the elect fits completely in the larger concept that Christ died for the elect and non-elect, the more general statement of Romans 5:6 does not contradict the more specific concept. So what I was saying is that whether or not "limited atonement" is a valid theology or not, Romans 5:6 does not contradict it nor does it prove it.
David,
Thanks for clarifying. As I understand your statement, you objected to the statement on philosophical and not theological grounds. It seems you are not making a theological claim. No worries. I am not a Philosopher.
I have to say though...your proof text made me chuckle. It seems that while you see in there that Christ died for His sheep...you also see that it does not exclude the fact that he "could have" died for all sheep, his and otherwise. I chuckled because the same philosophical argument you made applies in this case where the less specific text (John 10) is clarified by the more specific (1 John 2.2-- He is the propitiation for our sins...and not ours only, but also for the whole world.)
Granted, Romans 5:6 does not in itself and in context contradict Limited Atonement. In fact, the implication is vague. There are numerous other verses that speak against limited atonement.
I was not precise in my communication. Had I been, I would have said that the verse only goes to support, in my estimation, what is more clearly and specifically addressed elsewhere. Thanks for the post and for helping me clarify.
Grace,
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